JOHANNA: You both share a theoretical background. Now you’ve been busy
watching these Baltic Circle performances, right?

MAX: I managed to see four performances: The Year of the Hare by the
Estonians, Madagaskar by the Lithuanians, Nälkäteatteri’s Toisissa tiloissa
[In Alternative Spaces] and Q-theatre’s Highway 4.

MALLA: I went to see Touch the Polar Bear, The Last European, National Brand
and What is it all about.

MAX: You’ve been quite diligent.

JOHANNA:We of course think that working on this festival is really
reasonable and as far as I’m concerned, it seems that we, the organisers,
got this idea because we think that people in Finland are not too receptive
when it comes to this kind of theatre. I think the music and fine arts are
more receptive to the world outside than the Finnish theatre. To me this is
a pleasant job as, in my opinion, the Finnish theatre should have its doors
wider open to the rest of the world.

MAX: I agree.

JOHANNA: Yes. One slogan that everyone here within the Baltic Circle keeps
repeating is that BC is not a theatre festival in the sense that its purpose
was to go around the European theatre festivals looking for products that
sell well and then bring them here. So, the priority is not to look for some
good quality theatre but to find some ideas and people, and in particular,
people who we would later want to co-operate with. In other words, BC is
just one way of co-operating and getting together. On the other hand, the
Finnish theatre scene is not very open to the world – in my opinion!
Therefore it is important to get those performances here in order to see
what kind of theatre is being made right next to us.

MAX, MALLA: Mmmm.

JOHANNA: So, tell me, what are your ideas about this… what I just said is
the dogma I have because I’ve lived abroad and all that… how I see that
Finland is still a closed community in various ways. What do you, Max, think
about this?

MAX: I feel the same way to some extent… perhaps I hadn’t really been faced
with it until I had been abroad long enough, lived there and seen things… It
suddenly occurred to me that the situation in the field of theatre here
seems almost catastrophical.

JOHANNA: Catastrophical in what sense?

MAX: It doesn’t deal with the instances elsewhere in the world. Or, of
course there is a tiny group of some individuals who are trying… but if we
talk about theatre as a field -

JOHANNA, MALLA: Mmmm.

MAX: If you compare it, say, with fine arts – I’ve been working as a
gallerist and as I said, well yes, it’s got its restrictions, this is a
small and homogenous country but there are flows in and out, and when I go
and see some theatre, I get so amazed… on the other hand, I just don’t get
this local theatre.

JOHANNA: Why?

MAX: I don’t get what the target group is.

JOHANNA, MALLA: Mmmm, mmm.

MAX: I’m just so shocked. I can go and see some Barba in Italy or any
performance in London and I get what is going on and I feel that I’m in the
target group… I belong to this sort of European common intellectual
audience, and even thought I don’t belong to the theatre field in that
sense, I have no problem with the language, the form or ANYTHING. Everything
just goes so smoothly. But when I go and see something here, I usually leave
before the play is up and it’s extremely shocking. There’s this concept of
aesthetical pain which describes it quite well… but I’m not sure if it’s got
to do with unfamiliarity, should the Finnish plays be watched as if you were
watching some etnographic figure… or is it that it just happens to be, you
know, that bad but I don’t think so… or is it that it is some inner circle
feature that you just won’t quite get.

JOHANNA: And do you find the Finnish theatre aesthetically poor or does it
not seem to have anything to do with reality in that is seems to be in its
own little vacuum?

MAX: I can’t really say anything more specific about it. It just
doesn’t speak to me, I don’t see it relating to any other artistic fields
either, which I’m also engaged in to a great extent. From fine arts to
literature… But of course there are people who cannot be bothered about this…

MALLA: But I thought that they had something to do with each other, I mean
being aesthetically poor and relating to the reality. Because usually they
go hand in hand, don’t they?

MAX: What does this concept of reality mean here?

MALLA: What comes to my mind, even within this festival, is that you can see
the difference between the aesthetics and the concept of reality…

MAX: Yeah -

MALLA: If you for instance compare Touch the Polar bear to the other
performances that I saw, the difference is tremendous! I think that this
recent transition can also be seen in these other performances, especially
in the way of performing. Some time ago they used to be quite tied to the
conventions of performing. To the conventions of performing that are used in
theatre. But Touch the Polar bear and its aesthetics, in my opinion, apply
to that sort of very conventional concept of theatre, which seems to be in
that hub here in Finland.

JOHANNA: Mmm.

MALLA: ...And main stream.

JOHANNA: Mmmm.

MALLA: I think it’s obvious that something like that does not work these
days. This may be a harsh way to put it but I really don’t see why we should
take something like that abroad. Who would be interested in it?

MAX: Yes, who?

JOHANNA: Well, not that many are because nobody takes them abroad… if said
in the so-called harsh way.

MAX: No, I actually agree on that. But that concept of reality still keeps
bothering me, and I don’t quite know what it means. This isn’t any trap or
hook, just a sincere question.

JOHANNA: So that was a sincere question for you. What do you mean?

MAX: Just sincere.

MALLA: Well… somehow… the way you sense the reality and see it in the
aesthetics of the work. If I think about for example those Danish
performances or the Norwegian… I mean… in their way of performing there may
be, say, irony – satire is an archaic word so let’s say irony – which, in
some way, implies that some conflict or some parallel views about reality
can be displayed side by side.

MAX: Yes.

MALLA: But they’re not trying to solve them or respond to anything but
instead, discuss it for example with the help of irony. Which, I think,
implies that we understand that the damn reality keeps treating us the way
which….

MAX: Are you talking about polyphony?

MALLA: Yes, but also about how, for example, in that work by the Norwegian,
the image plays a very important role… you saw that, didn’t you?

MAX: No, I didn’t see that one.

MALLA: Ah ok. Well, there was this enormous flow of videoclips. Like how the
reality is no longer immediate. The sense of reality is not necessarily
direct and immediate but conveyed in representations.

JOHANNA: Mmmm.

MAX: Okay.

MALLA: So, this is an example of something that is different from the
Latvians, who still have the idea of a very sincere and pure relationship
between the actor and the viewer.

JOHANNA: Did you feel that the work communicated with you? Because its form
had been developed through this?

MALLA: Are you asking me?

JOHANNA: Yes.

MALLA: Well, yes I did.

JOHANNA: What I’m very curious about in our festival is what the
performances are that are chosen, what the ones are that make it to the
festival, and who the ones are that are left out. Think for example the kind
of theatre that is performed here… so many names are very familiar. The ones
that work in the centre of the field are the ones that we find here.

MAX, MALLA: Mmmm.

JOHANNA: I think this is also about a sort of big transition that should
take place here now. I mean, is there a way of thinking, concept of reality
or theatre that would be responsible for the Finnish theatre? Have you been
faced with this in The Venus Theatre?

MALLA: Uuuh, what can I say… I think I represent the kind of deep wildwood
Finn or the capital block citizen. I don’t think that we in The Venus Theatre have ever had the urge to go and perform abroad.

MAX: But local theatre is important, too. It’s not controversial, is it?

MALLA: No.

JOHANNA: But it’s such an interesting question in that it’s an important
issue in the Finnish theatre. But in the fields of Finnish music or visual
arts it doesn’t make any difference whether it’s local or global. It would
be such an absurd topic about a piece of photography art. But in Finland it
is very important for us to have our audience and the people, to whom we
target our work, regardless of them living in that block or wildwood you
mentioned. And that we communicate right there right then with them. And
tell their stories. I think there is something that does not appeal to you,
Max… in comparison with the works in London

MAX: Some of them do appeal to me and now I really must stress now that
there’s a lot of significant local stuff and it’s very important that they
are not that clear to other viewers. But I haven’t seen too much of that
either in the Finnish theatre… perhaps I haven’t been that active lately
because there was a time that I was so dissatisfied… but maybe I should do a
new round now, hang around there a couple of years again. But I mean the
kind of theatre that is really of local importance and not only imitating
some romantic European theatre, would be more than welcome... but I haven’t
really found anything like that. It may well be that it would attract me
again then… because when it comes to fine arts, there’s this universal stuff
– well, some hard modernism and such still get me, big time, or some new,
90’s pop art flows which we have a bit in Finland, too. But then we have
these local artists who really draw from… I don’t know… Is something like
Särestöniemi significant in any way abroad? And even if it is, it’s just
exotic, which on the other hand is always a must. But can I please get back
to that concept of reality again… Do you mean that it’s not a self
reflection? That it’s somehow naturalistic to try to act like: “This is the
true reality, and not a reflection. We’ll show you how things really are.”

MALLA: Yes.

MAX: Ok, well, then I feel exactly the same way you do. That was a good one.

JOHANNA: Let’s get back to what I just said about who is given space to
perform, and who will make sure that there will be Finnish theatres
performing and in addition, who will make sure they introduce their contacts
here in Finland. That’s also where we need – in order to save the Finnish
theatre or all of our lives… and to make this field of culture more vivid –
I mean we need various views of theatre from somewhere else than here.

A group of roadies enters.

XX: I’ll take this table away!

JOHANNA: This is such a chaotic day!

MAX: Can you go back a few sentences, please?

XX: I’ll take this table now.

JOHANNA: That’s fine but can you please go quickly. And close the door
behind you.

XX: How long will you be here?

JOHANNA: Why, who needs it now? We’ve booked this room.

XX: They need it on the stage.

JOHANNA: Right.

MAX: I don’t mind moving really.

JOHANNA: But we can’t have people popping in all the time.

MAX: Let’s go into that wardrobe.

JOHANNA: Or to the loo! Oh well, let’s stay here.

MAX: Ok.

The roadies are trying to take the tables out but they won’t get them
through the doorway. They’re trying to squeeze them in through a small
doorway with a massive rumble.

JOHANNA: How about discussing culture in this bloody country!

XX: We’re ruining your culture now just because we were asked to take the table.

JOHANNA: Oh no, I didn’t mean you or want to be mean to you!

XX: But we can come back in an hour.

JOHANNA: Yes, let’s do that.

The roadies get the tables back in.

MAX: Was this one of your ideas Johanna? Is this like some experiment or
something?

JOHANNA: Yeap, a little performance as a break here.

XX: Well well!

JOHANNA: And the door, please. What the heck was I talking about again?

MALLA: You were saying that it is important that the international flows get
here, which brought to my mind that the theatre and performing arts in
Helsinki have, in fact, fallen behind after the 80’s.

MAX: Really? That’s interesting.

MALLA: Well, I think it has. The Cultural Centre at the University of
Helsinki, when they still had it, was very influential in introducing the
contemporary theatre of the time. And dancing. I think I’m privileged as I
got to see that. But then, in the 90’s when they got rid of the Cultural
Centre -

JOHANNA: Why did they get rid of it?

MALLA: I don’t know.

MAX: That’s a very interesting question though.

MALLA: Yes. It was closed down. It wasn’t… They had many people going there…

MAX: It probably didn’t make enough profit. Nowadays the University of
Helsinki is very business orientated you know.

MALLA: Yes. But nothing has really replaced the Cultural Centre. Now we have
Kiasma, the contemporary art museum, which has in a way brought in…

MAX, JOHANNA: Mmmm.

MALLA: Brought here… has been able to bring here contemporary performing art
to some extent. But I really think the things were better back in 80’s
because the university had more money to invest in it.

JOHANNA: Perhaps the thing is that because after the early 90’s people have
been forced to live in such tight corners, the producers have been able to
reach the domination in the market. On the other hand, all the EU support
and all that is available now but that seems so out of reach and requires
good knowledge of how it all works. And very rarely big bodies such as the
city or the student board of the university will work for culture if it’s
sort of a charity job – the money rules everywhere now.

MAX: We also have to be able to explain where the money goes and the
explanation had better look good. The competition is so hard and so
professional now. In some countries it is still possible to play the game
without the real professional rules but here the field of culture is a poker
game with big bets.

JOHANNA: That is when things get a bit funny, even though we do have all sorts of things here but still, when we get some performance, say from Norway, people’s thinking get some weird dimensions, like: “Ok, this is this, now this is taking place in Norway”, it’s no longer the person or the matter but this one piece that represents “the world”.

MALLA: The world is visiting us now.

MAX: A very good point. Because for instance in visual arts they don’t have
any of that. Or in literature! I mean that if some Norwegian book is
translated, you read it and so what, it doesn’t represent anything national…
but the thing you said about when it takes place in theatre, you somehow
feel exactly like that when you go there and see those performances.

MALLA:Then again I feel that the receivers – think for instance Helsingin Sanomat, the daily newspaper – it has been extremely fascinated by everything that comes here from the East. We are very familiar with the Eastern European
very virtuoso like performing art which on the other hand is very conventional. But we’ve been stuffed with that.

JOHANNA: That’s right.

MALLA: But then perhaps what comes from the West and in particular, the
tradition of contemporary theatre, people know quite poorly. We, of course,
have those circles that are more interested in it, know more about various
flows, and go and see the performances whenever we get them. But I think
that the public reception could be improved, because the critiques cannot in
that way articulate what goes on there in the field of theatre, what it’s
all about.

JOHANNA: Yes, that’s a very important part of this job as we are the
mediator between the international groups and the Finnish audience, and then
there is the body that does not depend on us. The policy of Helsingin
Sanomat to report about the festival performances in advance can be seen in
the ticket sales and everything. I myself have studied in Russia and I
really appreciate the tradition a lot, the virtuosity. But what if there’s
nothing but virtuosity in the performance? Besides, I think that this
Eastern Europe and Russia are culturally so much more familiar to us, and
therefore safer for the Finnish theatre. They are just, so to speak, better
than us because they are virtuoso like but there is nothing that would
startle our world view or the concept of reality. But in the contemporary
art, there is starting to arise something that could really mix things up.

MALLA: I think in the previous years, you have brought in more radical… two
years ago we had the group from St. Petersburg…

JOHANNA: Formalny teatr.

MALLA: It was so remarkable because there was something that I find very
important in a festival… The fact that instead of the performance, the focus
is in the act. It may be for example in the audience, how it will react.
Testing the frontstage. Even if it is, to start with, significant for the
festival, it does stir things up, and the people in the audience will be
faced with each other when the frontstage cracks up.

MAX: I’ll escape to the cultural journalism for a sec. It’s not only
Helsingin Sanomat, the Finnish Pravda, which in a sense is the lousiest
specialist in many fields. It’s amazing how the same people keep writing
about the topics they know nothing about, and even over the years they don’t
achieve any additional knowledge… and then we have to suffer from it because
everyone reads only that newspaper. Whatever paper you write to, it’s only
Helsingin Sanomat that counts.

MALLA: Mmm.

MAX: But also in a broader sense the Finnish writing about culture puzzles
me because there’s such a big amount of writing that is merely local -

JOHANNA: By local you refer to Finnish now?

MAX: Yes. Like for example when they mention about some Finnish group’s
visit in Frankfurter Allemagne’s crappy little column, they must write a
whole article about it in Helsingin Sanomat. Or then we have these… I mean,
in cultural papers there are also these stories where they go like we went
to see the kind of art and theatre they make, say in Ontario, Canada… And
then there will be three pages about how they are a bit different from ours.
Like, we do this like this and they do that like that! Or how about this,
when they bring a fellow of-whatever-kind into Kiasma… Yes, let’s think
about for example Kiasma now. First, we waited and waited for it but now
that we have it, it looks like it may well have messed everything up
completely. Kiasma is THE place and everything must be brought into Kiasma
because if the artist’s work is exhibited somewhere else, it’s nothing.
That’s the way it goes at least in the field of fine arts. It makes no
difference what it is that you get into the gallery… or what field of
contemporary art it represents. It doesn’t play any role. Above all, you of
course hear people often say “I have to go and see that and that because the
people at Kiasma praised it.” They are responsible for such a big field that
they cannot handle it anymore. And this is tragic because they do try hard
there. But it would require something else, even breaking THAT pattern. But
back to Helsingin Sanomat, because I don’t get why the cultural pages cannot
be divided into the International Culture and Domestic Culture pages. Like
it is with politics. It seems that it will be unavoidable soon because this
situation is so pathetic. I read for example the magazine called
International Herald Tribune because it reports quite well about what goes
on around the world. And they argumentate about the matters. Blimy, it is
awesome to have newspapers that do some argumentation! Then you don’t mind
about the point of view of the author but you can still somehow get what she
or he is writing.

JOHANNA: Here in Finland a conversation like that would die of the fact that
the Finnish-speaking area is so small and we don’t have enough readers… and
that really is an irrational claim.

MAX: Completely.

JOHANNA: because if we do write anyway, why not do it more properly.

MAX: Yes, we have to take even better care of these kind of issues because
there are so few Finnish speakers. We should shoot even harder.

MALLA: Yes.

JOHANNA: Yes. Then again we have a nice culture in that the Finnish anger we
have takes us quite far. Like these issues for instance are quite clear to
all of us. So, we are faced with the options of sitting in a pub blaming it
on the Helsingin Sanomat or doing something about it.

MAX: Or doing push-ups and shouting. I just have to say now that there is
another side to this matter. There is one thing that makes it tragic in this
country, and that is the fact that by banging one’s fist on the table with a
masculine frantic anger you can get ASTONISHINGLY far. All the fellows that
are considered intellectuals here, starting with Jouko Turkka and Teeemu Mäki,
represent this. If you desire to become an intellectual figure here, you’ve
got to be strict, bang your fist and shoot the truth… I’ve actually written
one fairly long article on this. The same applies to the critical
journalism. We do not have critical journalism here. Everybody remembers
somebody like Matti-Esko Hytönen which is ridiculous. That’s not critical
journalism. I mean, couldn’t this be a country where the anger was a bit
different? I don’t mean that it should be somehow more sophisticated or more
feminine but the basic “work hard”- type could do perhaps… No offence to the
people I mentioned but they wouldn’t have got that far if it wasn’t for that.

MALLA: But doesn’t that… the appreciation relate to arts, too? And it’s
probably the anger that has also made the Finnish dramatic art famous. Or at
least that’s what they keep telling us. It is exactly this primitivity. The
so-called perkele! The masculine defiance, strength and power.

JOHANNA: It’s true, it’s a terrible requirement. It’s also about who the
people will listen to.

MAX: And in this sense we are in quite a bad situation. Perhaps it may
change but it takes a lot of work and how do we change things like this?

JOHANNA: I think one good opportunity we have these days is that we can try
and work out our local aspects abroad and not only worry about them here.
This is not such a withdrawn country anymore, we don’t have to just try and
cope within this system or sit silent in the corner.

MAX: I don’t have to. But you do because that dominates your audience.

JOHANNA: Well, I don’t know. Do you think that if you make a performance at
Kiasma, you can offer your audience exactly what they all want? Finnish
audience is quite segmented, isn’t it?

MALLA: Yes, it is. At least I work with people who don’t attach value to
this fist thing.

MAX: You don’t belong to the common ground. You are in the margin. You have
put yourself into a different pigeon hole.

MALLA: Yes, in this sense at least.

JOHANNA: But that may well be the kind of choice that will keep you in the
margin for a long time. The public field of the theatre in Finland is quite
homogenous after all… if you for instance think of the names that the
Helsingin Sanomat makes known. It is always the ones that belong to this
fist category. With a little variation. It is often a young talented man
with the primitive power.

MAX: Well, how are the people in the margin in Finland doing then, in the
field of theatre? Are they capable of drawing from these contrasts?

MALLA: I suppose so.

Some people walk in again. They are carrying cartons.

JOHANNA: Excuse me, I’m trying to record here, so please don’t make too much
noise. Thank you.

X: We have to unpack these.

JOHANNA: Ok, but please don’t talk very loud.

MALLA: So, you asked how the margin is doing.

JOHANNA: Like this!

MALLA: Like this! …Well, I think that issue concerns the theatre in the
centre as well. For example, Tuija Kokkonen’s Maus and Orlovski group comes
to my mind. She has explicitly dealt with the strong constituents, strong
masculine constituents, which can for instance be the play’s constituents,
but a lot more, too. And she has tried to unravel them and show the way of
unravelling. In other words, these can of course be brought up in an act on
stage as well. But how are they doing in the margin in other respects? Well,
I think at the moment theatre is not in the centre in the field of art anyway -

JOHANNA: Mmmm.

MAX: True.

MALLA: It has a small audience, attracts little publicity and is of little
news value. So that if you think of the margins of the mainstream, then of
course it is ultra marginal. But maybe, what is now happening, mainly
because the Theatre Academy now has the programme in Performance and Theory
by Arlander, so maybe such a trend is reappearing and people start talking
about performing arts, which by definition include much more than just
traditional stage art or traditional theatre. In performing arts the
performance can take many forms. It’s no longer tied to the conventions of
the theatre. And I think that the marginal space is beginning to spread and
reach other areas of art, as well.

MAX: I have to say that there are other academies as well, like for example
the Arts Academy of Turku, which is in fact a rather large institution.

MALLA: Exactly. Yes.

Someone comes in and drops the box on the floor.

MAX: Johanna has managed to stay rather calm.

JOHANNA: So, I definitely am in the margin, as I have studied abroad – and
in the field of fine arts as well… My feelings are somewhat mixed: in my
opinion there is something happening in Finland now in the field of the
performing arts but also in the theatrical arts. Even in these discussions
that we’ve had here in the Baltic Circle, I have come to realise that
particularly the Finnish makers are eager to take steps to prevent
themselves from becoming all middle-aged and established so as not to become
part of the power and money system, but rather to keep the sincere
aspiration to find something new.

MAX: Being middle-aged is hardly an obstacle.

JOHANNA: Middle-aged in the sense of having worked for a long time…

MAX: As a mental landscape?

MALLA: Yes, as a mental landscape, but it can also be a reality. And to this
I can add that I’ve been making art with loan money since the age of twenty,
I’ve used my student loan on making art, for God’s sake! And once you have a
family, a certain reality steps in, that what you can and what you cannot
do. So that the same monkey energy doesn’t suffice any more.

JOHANNA: But on the other side of the coin there lies the fact that there
are many people in the margin who no longer are twenty. So it’s not like you
first work like a madman in some student theatre and then you go to school
still working like a madman and only when you become a professional you
slacken. On the contrary! There are still many people, who no longer are
kids but who are still on the lookout and who have opted for remaining in
the margin. But I guess this is still in its very early stages and still
hidden underneath the establishment and entertainment and it is in the very
margin of the margin, so that it’s not defined yet but it most certainly
will be. On the other hand, in respect of its mental atmosphere at least in
the places that I’ve happened to visit – in my experience, the field of fine
arts is much more open. Everything is interesting in a good way – anything
goes. Whereas on the theatre side you’re immediately faced with value
judgements – Is this theatre? What is this really? The peripheral nature of
our theatre is visible here, too.

MAX: How about those people who have studied abroad? Do people who have
studied abroad stand a chance or do they have to create that social drinking
network before they can act? And I’m thinking about that fine art thing,
although it has opened up a bit… but it does have some pathological problems
in it. For example, some topics or ways of doing things are horrifying, the
way we’ve got stuck on things. But there is this certain openness about it.
You can study abroad and come back and do your own thing, and people look at
what you’re doing and how it works in the theatre.

MALLA: You should know.

JOHANNA: My experience shouldn’t be used as an example, because when I went
to Russia, in the mid-90’s, we had this straightforward way of thinking that
people who go and study theatre abroad are those who didn’t get into the
Finnish Theatre Academy. In other words the crap losers who pay for their
education with dollars because they didn’t get into the best theatre school
in the whole universe. For example, I remember when I met one influential
Finnish theatre director, an older man. He didn’t ask directly why I had
gone to Russia to study but instead, he went around it and asked how I would
compare the Finnish and Russian university entrance exams?

MAX: Really?

JOHANNA: And when I answered that I didn’t know about the Finnish entrance
exams because I had only applied to Russia, I could see it in his behaviour
that my ranking value went up in his eyes. And that was the atmosphere not
even ten years ago.

MAX: A bit like business graduates from the Uppsala University in Sweden?

JOHANNA: Yeah, people kept saying back then that it was a blessing to be
born in Finland, and when repeated often enough, you believed it. We have
the best schools, hospitals, and everything in the whole wide world… We
still haven’t understood that Finland is a small and peripheral country and
not even in the middle ground. This is so for example in the art and theatre
world. So, I came back year 2000, and it took me an awfully long time to get
back to work, because I’m a director and you need quite a few people in
addition to myself before things start rolling. But… it’s been damn tough. I
don’t think I would have ended up in fine arts at all, if the doors to the
theatre world had opened up earlier. Slowly but surely. And on the other
hand, I’m thinking that we’re just way behind in Finland and in particular
in the theatre world – just like in many other things. What I mean is that
the next generation is completely different – in the academic and art
circles, people who haven’t lived abroad have become something of a rarity.

MAX: I’d be interested in your opinions, too. Can I invite you to talk?

MALLA: Well, yeah. My background is that I haven’t studied at the Theatre
Academy.

MAX: That’s interesting.

MALLA: I’ve graduated from the Faculty of Theatre Research and been doing
theatre since the beginning of the 80’s. Of course, I’ve been left out of
all those important networks, those that begin to develop in the Theatre
Academy. In that sense, I’m in the same situation as Johanna.

JOHANNA: Isn’t it so that there is quite a strong… that even you – being a
Helsinki-based theatre maker and everything – that you still are like from
another world because you come from the University and not from the Theatre
Academy? It’s quite odd that the world is so small.

MALLA: I remember that back in the 80’s in The Venus Theatre we used to
greatly admire people such as Richard Schechner particularly because he was a
university graduate, a scholar. He was studying theatre by making theatre.
He was our role model, the way things should be. You should be able to
combine theory and practice. Nowadays, I think that there is a lot of that
around, but not in the 80’s. At least I’m of the opinion that the Theatre
Academy is left out of that picture.

MAX: National institutions are interesting. Particularly the older people
think that you should come from the Theatre Academy. And now that the
Theatre Academy has this experimental line, it is considered a big change.
People have been studying abroad, making experimental theatre just for the
sake of it, studying theatre research and so on, so I’m not all that
convinced that the experimental line of the Theatre Academy is a good
example of a change. Yet, it is good that people do go and see it. Same
applies to the fact that those in the field of fine arts always visit the
graduates’ exhibitions of the Academy of Fine Arts. I’ve never heard anyone
praise the graduates’ exhibition of the Academy of Fine Arts and I haven’t
seen anything good coming out of it. I believe that all the interesting
things come from interesting places. They come from exactly where you
believe it wouldn’t come from. All of a sudden some porcelain glass line in the
University of Art and Design starts producing some hardcore modern art – of
course, because porcelain has been looked down on as a material, people
start now experimenting with it. That’s why it’s so crazy this way that we
have these national institutions. It would be really important if we could
somehow shake them off in such a small country as Finland. How is it
possible that we have just one Theatre Academy, one Academy of Fine Arts,
one Helsingin Sanomat, and one Kiasma? And everything that comes out of these establishments gets everybody’s complete approval… I don’t know how we could shake them off, do
we need an attitude change or something… Maybe the change should come from
within, because sometimes it is really embarrassing when people get all
worked up about something quite useless.

JOHANNA: On the other hand, I believe that looking out for your own
interests starts long before an establishment becomes a national
institution. In the previous discussion, Jolle Lehtonen, a Russian-Finnish
director, said that in the beginning all groups are damn poor but they’re
still doing their own thing. And then, if they gain success and don’t die as
a group, they start gaining money and start immediately defending their own
position. Once you reach at least some degree of stability, you start
defending it. The fact, that we are in the margin, can equally well mean
that we have a marginal brand.

MAX: To defend your own marginality?

MALLA: I believe there’s a similar kind of boundary defining going on in
other fields, too. As well as looking out for your own interests.

MAX: I’d like to try out pragmatically if this could be developed further
somehow? It’s always so nice to sit down and talk therapeutically about
things, but… maybe it would be courageous to think about the forms of
concrete action instead of just sitting and criticising.

MALLA: Just like I said, I think that things have already improved quite
significantly. It’s got to do with the fact that particularly in the
margins, the artists have begun to take things over. People have started
discussing, writing in different publications and internet. You, Johanna,
are a good example of that, but in other respects too, there are signs of
such a trend that people are no longer willing to wait till they’re spotted
and brought out there. Instead, people are trying to find the routes where
they’d get more publicity with the means that fit their own purposes. I
think that the times of moaning about us being in the margins is over. No
one’s interested in suffering because of it. It’s long gone.

JOHANNA: I think so, too. But the next problem is what I talked about with
Klaus Beck Nielsen, who’s a Dane. By the way, he’s going to be awarded some
Danish State Prize today. Anyway, he’s of the opinion that career is a
difficult thing, because it should be avoided until the last breath. The
danger lies in the fact that no matter how weird or marginal you are, the
system always wants you. So the question could also be how to remain in the
margin, how to remain art. Is it even necessary to be at the centre of
things – for example in Helsingin Sanomat? Or is it enough to concentrate on
your own art and your own reality? Occasionally, these publicity and money
matters only make things worse.

MAX: But it probably depends on what kind of a centre and what kind of a
margin it is. Sometimes, when I’ve spent longer periods in Paris or Berlin,
for example, I’ve got all confused because the margin there is mind-blowing.
It forms a centre of its own. And it’s rich. And I remember that it keeps on
moving and the interesting or marginal stuff just won’t run out. There it
wouldn’t be a problem living in the margin for the rest of your life,
because it will keep on regenerating. But the problem here is that the
margin is so small. I have to tell you one anecdote. I remember that at some
point I became interested in experimental and performing arts. So I went to
see those things. The same dozen people were always in the audience filming
the stuff and then there were a couple of people watching it stone-faced… it
was a completely closed circle. I remember going to watch one performance by
some man called Pena in the Theatre Museum. I don’t even know his real name, it was
never mentioned. He was just Pena, because everybody knows everybody… I
stopped going into these things in Helsinki. I kept on visiting the places
in the other towns where I stayed in occasionally. And I can now say with
hindsight that if I ever again am in the margin, the margin has to
communicate with those people that come from outside. Instead of just
sitting around and calling each other by nicknames such as ‘Pena’. It
shouldn’t be like that. In fact I felt that the “circle of Penas” was
worse establishment than many institutions. It was impossible for me as an
outsider to just come and watch the works without feeling like a complete
idiot standing there. This could be everybody’s personal mission that should
be done now: when new people arrive, you should take an open stance towards
them and not to stick to your own safe circle.

MALLA: It probably is true, although humanly understandable, trying to lean
against each other and withdrawing into your own shell.

MAX: But it doesn’t make any sense if you don’t share it with others.

MALLA: On the other hand, nowadays there are many artists who can work in
the margin but then there are those who keep going back to the centre. It’s
typical of today. Then I’m thinking that what you could do? And these
independent things such as the Baltic Circle are really important. The first
two times, I had this feeling that the whole place was swarming and people
saw each other and went like “oh, that person is here too, and that and
that” – I’m talking about people who I don’t know. At the club you could
chat to strangers. I thought it was great. I must admit, though, that it is
great seeing the performances too, but it is even greater to see what starts
to happen between people who are there to experience things. And I have to
add that even though the topics in this festival were really nice, I was
missing the performances where the focus was on the audience.

JOHANNA: So that the audience gets into what is happening at the festival
and isn’t there just for the sake of the tunes.

MALLA: That’s true. It’s the eventfulness of the festival.

JOHANNA: Yes, I must admit that it was funny when you said that you felt
like an idiot standing there watching it and realising that it wasn’t meant
for you.

MAX: Yeah, the message was clear. They didn’t want any outsiders there.

JOHANNA: How do you feel, Max – what should you do then instead of just moaning?

MAX: I’m not sure if I know the field well enough.

JOHANNA: But if we talk about the field that is dear to you.

MAX: Well, I feel that it would foremost require social openness. The fields
are sometimes too closed. No stream. Let’s take you inviting us here to talk
as an example: I’ve read Malla’s articles, but I’ve never met her. And then
people claim that this is a small country and everybody knows each other.
For instance, I’ve been studying aesthetics for five years now and from the
extremely small circle of Finnish aesthetic scholars I only know about
three-fourths. It just goes to show that it’s rubbish to say that everybody
knows everybody because from such a small range of people I still don’t know
everybody. Socially you should constantly work on a personal level, in other
words, you should talk – clear your throat a little. There’s no room for
clogging in such a small country. Of course, it’s good to get people from
abroad from time to time, so that the situation doesn’t get stuck. I also
work in the University of Art and Design and the information there doesn’t
flow from one department to the next. For instance, our neighbouring
department could have had visitors who I know, but I wasn’t aware of them
being in the country and lecturing in our school. Even on the small scale
you need increased openness. But maybe what we also need is a cultural
magazine. I don’t think we have one.

JOHANNA: This is the topic that we keep coming back to. Finnish culture
makers are always complaining about Helsingin Sanomat… But if we talk about
the centre and the margin and the fact that it is now claimed that people no
longer moan about no one being interested in them… Then we definitely are
lacking a magazine where artists and scholars could write about arts. Where
marketing people and journalists wouldn’t meddle. That it would come
straight from the artists and scholars themselves. A free newspaper… so that
it wouldn’t only be read by those who’d read them anyway.

MAX: It really would be rather important.

JOHANNA: And it would be important that it dealt with the whole artistic
field and didn’t concentrate on just some part of it, like for example the
theatre. And then the margin would then pretty much equal the establishment!

MAX: Yes, but the problem is how to make it wider and more open. So that the
social insecurity could still be kept in the communities. I think it’s quite
a big theme even in the philosophy.

JOHANNA: What do you mean?

MAX: I mean that if these discussions started rolling really well and we’d
organise them every month, for instance, then in a couple of years’ time it
would be really hard to ask some outsider to join in.

JOHANNA: That’s true.

MAX: Or at least we’d invite someone with whom the conversation is flowing
because often the confrontations are such that the conversation doesn’t
really flow. Awfully many artistic communities are closed in that way, at
least in Helsinki. I don’t know what it’s like elsewhere in Finland. But for
example, there’s this European philosophy group that won’t participate in
any discussions outside their own group and, if they do, they’re just
putting others down. And then for instance that situation with the
performances at the end of the 90’s. I’m really quite shocked about these
groups. And often they just keep everything to themselves, so that they’ve
stayed in their own little container for some twenty years… So that, what’s
done in these groups isn’t necessarily so interesting that you should work
your butt off in order to get in there and talk with them. The cramped
conditions of their little container get to you as soon as you get to their
door. Such communal insecurity that an outsider could just come in and say
something irrelevant would be worthwhile. And that would be the solution in
many situations. I’m actually founding a society for the study of the
Finnish popular culture. At first me and these four men who study pop music
managed to get it together. That was because I had to be quick in finding
these guys, but now I’m thinking that us five will be branded as a society
studying Brit pop. We have to arrange some event soon – if not anything
else, we have to ask some negro Goth to join in or have a female lecturer in
some event – that wouldn’t be a problem because in this field most of the
top scholars are women. And ask other cities, not just Helsinki, to join in.
These things have to be done so that we get the message across that we
aren’t a closed circle concentrating on just one thing. Or otherwise in a
couple of years’ time people won’t join us because they’ll think that this
is a closed circle of just a few guys. So we must signal that this is an
open society – the interesting question is what the means are that we can
use. In my opinion this also applies to arts. Sometimes it requires some
good rivalry. Of course someone might think that it ruins the natural
atmosphere in the societies, but I don’t know if the atmosphere is a value
in itself.

JOHANNA: How do you feel about this, since you come from The Venus Theatre?

MALLA: I hate to say it but I think we’ve been awfully withdrawn. Today I
long for discussions and encounters. I think that even performing arts are
constantly going to the direction of encounters… But I do think that
sometimes you need closed space and isolation while making arts.

MAX: But doesn’t it concern the making more than anything else?

MALLA: Yes. But unfortunately often the way you do things turns into a way of
life. It’s so hard to keep them separate, to divide your life so that you’re
something completely different here from what you are there. Particularly if
the making is really intense. So, my point of view is rather conflicting.

MAX: But maybe that is the problem. I’ve never come to think of it from that
perspective. Because of course you have to mould things a little.

MALLA: And the feeling of security is extremely important in theatre making.

MAX: Maybe the communities aren’t capable of being twofold… Maybe it
requires such external events as this festival. It could be a daunting task…

MALLA: Well, I don’ know about that, I think that people are twofold in
other respects, as well. Or fivefold. In my experience some communities can
be awfully withdrawn, but at least I’m hoping that I’ve managed to open them
up a little.

JOHANNA: I guess it’s necessary for the sake of continuity. What is required
is that these things have the time and space to develop within a closed
community. The thing that’s being done, for example the theatre festival or
the art work, has its own rights – it has the right to become itself. What
this requires is that it’s given protection. But later the moment will come,
when those who originally created the festival or the art work or the
community have to open up that closed circle and let the thing grow even
bigger than themselves. This is the moment when you have to be brave enough
to let the other ones in. In other words, it is a process.

MALLA: That is a traditional way to describe process. It is the most common and not such a bad one. But, an example of another kind of process popped into my mind. It dates back to last spring and it took place in Kiasma. Then the festival of contemporary theatre, TeatteriNyt (TheatreNow) took place there. You were able to see performances that were not ready, that were on the stage of rehearsing. It is pretty rare to be able to see such performances and to be in contact with other people within a performance-in-process. It was a fine experience.

JOHANNA: An open one?

MALLA: An open one.