LIINA: I wanted to say when I introduced myself that our theatre, Von Krahli Theatre (VKT) was the first theatre in Estonia that was a private theatre and a project theatre.

JOHANNA: Is it the last one still or are there some other ones now?

LIINA: Actually it is!

JOHANNA: Why?

LIINA: I guess there are some problems with money.

ELINA: Would the young people like to work in such theatres?

LIINA: This changed only last year. VKT has existed for about 10 years and until now everybody who went to the theatre school wanted to work for the state theatres after they graduated. But now they have a new headmaster in the school and he has broadened the scene a little bit.

ELINA: Are there any freelance actors?

LIINA, MARI Yes there are, many.

ELINA: Are they unemployed?

LIINA: Mostly. But they can also do something on TV, or do some advertisements and earn money like that.

ELINA: Do they take freelancers to visit to the institutional theatres?

LIINA: Yes.

MARI But we don’t have that many freelancers. I think you have more of them in Finland.

LIINA: Of course there are some more because the country is bigger. But I think in Estonia, there is a problem of educating excessive amounts of professional actors. Because we have like three theatre schools...

ELINA: Three! Are they state run?

MARI: One is private and two are state run.

LIINA: So, after every year there are so many new actors who don’t have a
place to go!

JOHANNA: So, why don’t they start their own groups then? Why do they wait for someone to hire them?

LIINA: Maybe because of the tradition...

JOHANNA: It doesn’t sound like a very good situation if you have only two options: either you wait for someone to find you or you do something about it yourself, and then of course you should not just sit and wait....

LIINA, ADA, MARI: ...But the money!

JOHANNA: It’s the same thing here. A lot of people work for almost no money, because that is better than waiting for miracles to happen.

LIINA: How does the system work in Finland? Will the government provide you with money if you work as a freelancer?

ELINA: You can apply for it, but it’s difficult to get money for the productions at the beginning. For example in Q Theatre, we started with nothing. And then... the 2nd play was a huge success, so after that we got some money. Now we have quite a stable situation, we get money from the state. But we still have a problem with very low salaries.

LIINA: Mmmm.

JOHANNA: But Q is one of the very very few free groups that can afford to pay salaries.

ELINA: But since the salaries are so low, it means that we have to work in other places as well.

LIINA: It’s the same with us. But we are happy now, because when we started we didn’t have much money... and later there were periods of time when we had very little audience. We played for six, eight people! So I don’t know how Peeter Jalakas, our manager, managed to get in enough money to be able to pay our salaries!

JOHANNA: Maybe it was for the restaurant that VKT has there in the same building?

LIINA: Yes, maybe it was the restaurant. So, in the beginning our theatre had the lowest salaries in Estonia – but at least we got our salaries. Then, after 5 years, VKT started to grow, and therefore even the pay is better now.

ELINA: Can you live on your salary?

LIINA: It depends on the person of course!

ELINA: But you don’t suffer from hunger living on that salary?

LIINA: Statistically the average salary in Estonia is a little bit lower than ours. So it’s not bad.

JOHANNA: Giedre, what about you? Can you live on the salary you get from your work or do you have to take other projects on the side?

GIEDRE: Mainly yes, I have to get other income as well. My salary is very low. But because we get funding for different projects, I also get some extra money that way.

KOTYRZYNA: From the state or from different sponsors?

GIEDRE: We have a state support for different projects, like producing performances or organising festivals. But of course I get paid every month, but I need to get some extra as well.

ELINA: So, how do you get it? What do you do to get it?

GIEDRE: I take different projects.

ADA: But they are projects that you do yourself, I mean you take them into the theatre repertoire and Information Center.

GIEDRE: Yes, yes. Like for instance we did a documentary film festival together with the Cinema Center.

JOHANNA: What about you, Ada?

ADA: My situation is actually quite similar to the one with Giedre. My original profession is a journalist, so I can always earn some money by writing articles and that’s what I keep doing. But not because of money but, you know, because of some professional interest. I actually live on my salary because we are an independent organization, Oskaros Korsunovas Theatre – I guess some of you know this director-

JOHANNA: His performance was shown on our first festival, BC 2000.

ADA: We go on tours a lot and this is the main source where we get the money from. Because performing in Lithuania doesn’t award you any money... but anyway, we also plan projects sometimes, and sometimes the projects get some support – depends on the luck, I suppose! But anyway, I am trying to live on my salary, because it is a very small company and there is too much work -

THE REST: Mmmm!

ADA: Too much work and too little time for me to take any extra jobs. The truth is that I practically don’t have time left for anything else. But the situation is similar to the one that Giedre described: we are also doing all kinds of projects, a lot of projects. Actually the projects are the biggest movement in theatre in Lithuania. Independent groups are doing all kinds of projects. There was a research on this theme: the audiences were asked the kind of performances they like the most and their answer was that the independent groups are doing the best theatre in Lithuania now. Because the institutional ones are not interested in anything new. They are not doing anything contemporary, they are not bringing in anyone from abroad, only the
independent groups are taking care of that. So this is what we do. This is the second year we are trying to organize the festival called Sirenos. It attempts to fill the empty space that was left after the international Theatre Festival in Vilnius stopped some five years ago. We intend to renew it. We also try to bring in some special groups like we did this year when we brought the classical Japanese Noh group. So these are some of the forces that keep the theatre alive in Lithuania. There are alive institutions like Giedre’s workplace Theatre and Cinema Information and Education Centre and a place called Art’s Printing House (APH). Artists’ Printing House might be starting the biggest new movement in Lithuania, because they are giving young people – including directors, playwrights, set designers, actors, dancers – an opportunity to try give it a go on stage, and to perform new texts.

JOHANNA: Are any of the new directors or playwrights women?

ADA: Of course. Of course there are!

JOHANNA: This stupid question arises from that that I know from my experience in Russia, that there are a lot of female students, but when the professional life starts the girls seem to disappear from the picture. And having been to festivals and so on in the Baltic States, the situation seems a bit familiar.

ADA: But we do have young women directors!

ELINA: How come we have not seen any?

ADA: They are not so famous. But we do have them!

ELINA: So after they graduate, they work as directors?

ADA: Yes, we have Ramun? Kudzmanait?, who constantly makes performances. She is the one and only director who never forgets about the children. Well, this does not mean that she is staging only for children, not at all, but I think it is quite important work because the child audiences are sometimes ignored by the directors, because it is not interesting...

JOHANNA: And not enough money!

ADA: No... They are trying to amuse the adults. But we also do have some very interesting women who are now emerging on the scene. They also come from the APH. We will soon have a premiere of Dalia Jokubauskait? – it’s her second performance now. And we have one very interesting woman Ramun? ?ekuolyt?.

JOHANNA: I have to get these names!

ELINA, ANNA: Me too!

ADA: She studied costume design and then she worked in the cinema. After that she entered in the TV directing department and after that she went to Moscow to GITIS and now she is directing in theatre. She got a new play scenery from Vyrpaev, which is also taking part in your festival, and is presenting the play this December. So, I think this is one of the really interesting things that are waiting for us.... but unfortunately we do not have very famous female directors. But we do have VERY famous female actresses.

JOHANNA, ELINA, LIINA: True.

ADA: But I hope that the situation will change.

ELINA: But do you think that they will get a chance? Because in our later discussions we discussed for instance the playwrights’ situation in Lithuania, and we heard that they do not have that many possibilities to get their texts to be performed.

ADA: I do not believe in those talks you know. This depends on the personality. If the person really wants to do something – you know this is exactly what you said, Johanna – if the person wants to do something, they will find a way.

ELINA: But I also heard that it is hard to find room for performances?

GIEDRE: No, I think that the APH has changed the situation. They invite people who would have difficulties in renting a performance place where to work. It’s a very good place for artists to come and show their work.

ADA: But the place itself is not ready yet. It’s under construction.

ANNA I know the place. It’s a very nice place.

GIEDRE: Now we have only a small hall called “Pocket Hall”. It takes in about fifty people.

ELINA: So that’s a really good place to show new texts and everything?

GIEDRE: Yeah.

ADA: The place is almost always overcrowded. Lot’s of people come there. But about the playwrights... we have VERY many good writers, and especially women! We have...

ELINA: Ok, we haven’t heard these ones!

ANNA: I tried to discuss with Marius Ivaskevicius about whether there are any female writers –

JOHANNA: And he goes like: No!

ANNA: Yeah he said there are none.

ADA: No, he must have got it wrong. We have very good writers who also write plays. Jurga Ivanauskait? – she is a very famous Lithuanian writer, I don't know if you know her?

JOHANNA, ELINA: No.

ADA: And there is Laura Sintija ?erniauskait? – she was staged in Moscow and in United States...

GIEDRE: And she has won many prizes as well! In Germany for instance. She is very famous.

JOHANNA: Ok, we have done some bad research.

ELINA: How old is she?

ADA: She is about 28.

ELINA: She is young.

ADA: She is young. But she is really good. And her work is just perfect.  And we have another one who is an actress but she writes perfect plays Daiva ?epkauskait?. She is also the best poet of the year. You know her – she plays at the small theatre in Kaunas.

KOTYRZYNA: Mmm.

ADA: Actually she has got a degree in medicine, but then she turned into an actress and nowadays she writes a lot. We are planning to stage her play. And there ARE emerging ladies who are actually more brave than men. And they are much deeper.

ELINA: Do they get their texts easily directed in Lithuania?

ADA: It depends…

JOHANNA: …on whether the text is good or not?

ADA: it depends on whether the director finds the text, or if she herself wants someone to stage the text and offers it. But Laura Sintija was staged, and Daiva as well.

ELINA: And they are both under 30?

ADA: Around 30.  And do you remember Russian theatre that performed the other night here? The director, actor and composer Ivan Pankov, plays a head role in “Lucy skates”, which was staged in Moscow and won the sympathies of the audience at the New Drama festival.

ELINA: So, some of her texts have been translated to?

ADA: To Russian and to English mainly.

ELINA: This is really interesting because we really haven’t heard these names. For instance this year when we asked about the female directors or playwrights, we heard from at least two people saying that no, there aren’t any.

ADA, GIEDRE: Totally strange!

ADA: But yes, of course, we have two very strong male writers that rule the world in Lithuania: Marius Ivaskevicius and Sigitas Parulskis.

LIINA: You asked if these female writers are under thirty. In Estonia the situation is completely different. There is one female director - the one and only that can be called “director” and about whom the men speak with the same tone as when they speak about the male directors. And she is almost 60 years old. When she went to the theatre school, she was almost ten years older than the guys. And she is a very good director.  Our country is small, and we have only one female director, who you can talk about...

JOHANNA: With a normal tone?

LIINA: Yes and without emphasising that she is a female director.

JOHANNA: Maybe because she belongs to the older generation?

LIINA: That’s why I mentioned her. She is from the Soviet period.

ELINA: It’s funny because some two years ago I asked from Cezaris in Lithuania about the female directors

ADA: Yes?

ELINA: And he answered that there is only one but she is already 80 years old.

ADA: This was a very typical case in all the Baltic states. All the three countries had one or two female writers or directors, and some of them are very old now, and some have unfortunately passed away. So. We do not have any famous young women directors right now.

ELINA: It seems that the theatre in the Baltic countries is very much based on the will of the male director-master -

JOHANNA: I think what Ada is trying to tell is a happy story: the women are coming.

ADA: Personally I think we have very strong female writers and we also have strong directors emerging. And we have one woman who works a lot in silence - Ramun? Kudzmanait? who is silently working a lot. I think everything is ahead.

JOHANNA, ELINA: Haven’t heard about her either!

ANNA: The reason we have not heard about these names earlier is that we have asked male writers, directors, producers... And they just say “Noooo, there are no interesting women.”

ADA: Maybe they are quite happy in that position!

Common giggling.

ANNA So... are they secretly trying to keep the ladies out?

ADA: No.

GIEDRE: No.

JOHANNA: Maybe it’s just that these women are the next generation or something. So maybe they are just new in the business.

LIINA: I don’t know how it is in Lithuania but since it is a Catholic country I could imagine it might be hard for a woman to stand up. In Estonia it’s absolutely normal that the women are putting themselves down.

JOHANNA: What is that? I didn’t understand?

LIINA: I mean that it is normal that if you are a woman, you don’t stand up for yourself. It has nothing to do with violence, like if the women were very pressured. Its more the cultural background. It’s a voluntary choice to place yourself on a lower position than men.

ADA: I think this is has its roots in the past.

LIINA: Exactly!

ADA: Women are more intelligent so they just silently do their jobs.

ELINA: I have to ask that don’t you feel angry sometimes about that?

LIINA: Of course!

ELINA: Is it frustrating?

LIINA: Yes it is. Now I am getting emotional! It’s for example when you are working in a community where there are two women...

MARI: There are three women!

LIINA: Yes but the one is on a baby holiday [maternity leave]... Holiday!

ELINA: Happy holiday with the kid!

LIINA: Even the language is like that... anyway, there are four men and the two of us now. And when you are for example all discussing together the play that you are working on at the moment. And the guys speak with their loud voices... and you try to say what you think with your quiet one. And nobody pays any attention to that – then some minutes later some of the guys will say EXACTLY what you had just said – and then everybody goes like “yeah, that’s a good idea!”

SEVERAL VOICES: I know exactly what you mean!

LIINA: And then you just think that ok, theatre is collective kind of art anyway and therefore the ideas are not authorized... so, after all, everything is ok.

ELINA: I must be honest and tell you that the reason we invited you to join this discussion was that my experience in travelling with the Baltic Circle artistic planning group was a bit difficult in the Baltic countries in this female-male sense. It was always like when Anna and I were introduced to the directors or producers, they very often did not even look us in the eye. We were nothing to them, like air. So, I have really found this attitude towards women irritating.

LIINA: You are right. That is the attitude there. We have just got used to the situation as it is. We have the option not to take any responsibility – ok, you can’t be responsible for anything, so that’s fine, I won’t even try to.

JOHANNA: Well that really does sound terrible.

ADA: I disagree. Have you met the men in Lithuania?

ELINA: I have met some directors...

ADA: And?

JOHANNA: Well, I have to add to the conversation that I have never had these kind of problems, not in the four years I stayed in Russia or the many trips that I have done there or in the Baltic States.

ELINA: So maybe it was the fact that I am an actress. Or maybe the situations just were like that...

ADA: Maybe you should come to Oskaras Korsunovas Theatre....

ELINA: He is the director I haven’t met!

ADA: I think that the men in Lithuania are quite polite and very beautiful! And I do not hear the women say: “I am treated poorly”. It’s the opposite. Also, I don’t think that this is a theme that the directors and actresses discuss together. They have some artistic questions to solve, not gender issues.

ANNA: And there is also this point that we react differently to these questions. For us it’s suuuuch a big thing if somebody is totally ignoring, not even looking at you! And only because of the fact that I am female. For us it is sooo absurd – and it makes you soooo angry – immediately!

ADA: Maybe you should simply just ask?

ELINA: I have done it and I have got into good relations after doing so – but the start is always the same.

ANNA: It’s also like that when we are discussing something with the male directors and producers, and the male members of our artistic planning group are there, so the situation is again like that nobody talks to us. If we ask something, they answer to the male members of our group. And that is so strange!

ADA: That really does sound strange to me, too!

GIEDRE: Do you mean you have this situation in the Baltic States or in Russia or is it everywhere?

ELINA: In the Baltic States.... of course we do have these similar problems in Finland, too, but I suppose me and Anna are like that, we react immediately if someone treats us like shit.

JOHANNA: I have to repeat that I have never had these kind of problems living in Russia, travelling there, travelling in the Baltic states... so Anna and Elina are not representing all the Finnish women and their opinions here!

ELINA: Yes we are!

ANNA: No, the truth is that everybody hates us right away!

ADA: That’s what I wanted to say! Maybe this is your problem, ladies! I think it is not a male problem! ... No, honestly,. I don’t think that we can prove the case that you described a problem in Lithuania. I was never put in such a situation.

ELINA: So, you feel that you are in the same position as the men who are doing the same work?

ADA: Absolutely. I don’t even see a reason to separate women and men.

LIINA: I think that maybe it is the case in your work. But I think if you are an actor in Estonia, it really is a different situation if you are a woman. For example, the first time we had a Finnish director, Erik Söderblom, the first thing he said to me in the rehearsal was: “Liina, why are you trying to seduce all the time?” It was very good. Because I have felt all my life – at school, at work – like my duty was to be as attractive as possible.

MARI: Each moment you had to control yourself.

LIINA: Like in the theatre school...

ADA: You were taught in the theatre school to be as attractive as possible?

LIINA: Yes our fucking class master commanded the girls to work like this: “Could you try to be more like a model? Try to do a model.”

ADA, JOHANNA: Wau!

LIINA: And when you are a young person, of course you try everything. So it really is so drastic! To be an actress in Estonia – it is drastic. So it really was a big relief when Erik came and said: “Can you be normal?” So, actually, every time someone comes from the Nordic countries, they are like that and it is very relieving.

JOHANNA: You don’t have to seduce them!

ADA: I think this is strange... Maybe the system of teaching is different in Lithuania.

LIINA: Probably.

ADA: From the things that I hear I know they are forced to do very hard things but those things have nothing to do with seducing or looking nice. I  also think that the best actresses in Lithuania have nothing to do with models. And the whole world adores them.

ELINA: It’s interesting to hear, because I think the women in all the Lithuanian plays that I have seen are very beautiful.

ADA: I also do think that they are beautiful and I love them, but the male opinion seems to be different...

JOHANNA: They are beautiful because they are good on stage.

ADA: That’s the point. And they are not good because of their beauty, that’s for sure. And I have to say now, that I am ashamed, because I forgot to mention one very good female director from Lithuania, she is Dalia Tamulevi?i?t?. She is belongs to the elder generation, but she is really strong. She has done everything that is based on the psychological theatre in Lithuania. She is the best in that. She works in the Youth Theatre in Vilnius and her performances are  much loved.

JOHANNA: There is this festival side to the problem of us trying to find female directors from the Baltic. Either we have asked from the wrong people, which have told us that there are no interesting women in the business, or we have gone to the wrong festivals. Because I have really been to quite many festivals on the field but I have very very seldom seen any women’s performances. It’s always the same people like Oskaras Korsunovas or Alvis Hermanis or Rimas Tuminas... and these guys have been there for a while by now.

KOTYRZYNA: But these are festivals...

JOHANNA: But the festivals function as a window to the foreign people like us through which we are trying to look for interesting stuff. Because, you know, it is very difficult to go to some foreign country and start visiting all the theatres one after another to find out about the good performances.

ADA: The festivals need big names.

JOHANNA: That is not necessarily true. We are really trying to avoid that in our festival.

ADA: I think Baltic Circle is in that sense one of the rare exceptions, one of those festivals that are looking for the new names. And still, I think all the festivals need big names for the box office.

JOHANNA: Well, I don’t know... I think that people are coming to see our festival performances anyway. We didn’t have such huge names this year...

ELINA: We had Rimas Tuminas.

ADA: He is a huge name in Lithuania. He is the history of Lithuanian theatre.

ELINA: And also Cezaris.

JOHANNA: Yeah ok we had them all...

GIEDRE: Tuminas is a more huge name in Lithuania than Cezaris.

ELINA: He has worked here a lot so he is here well known.

ADA: Cezaris was ignored in Lithuania, he was treated like a lady! Until he started to work here.

ANNA: That’s why he treated us so poorly!

ELINA: He has a trauma!

ADA: What happened with Cezaris in Lithuania when he was ignored by the critics and he started his own troop called The Young Theatre Generation. They travelled a lot, performed a lot, made some good pieces, but nevertheless nobody paid attention to them. Later the group collapsed of course, and only then he started the group that he is working with now. The one that is called The Cezaris Group. He took very young actors there, but they won the best Debut last year and were awarded by The Ministry of Culture .

GIEDRE: Yes, they were his students in the theatre academy and after they finished their studies he made a group out of them.

ANNA: We are opening the sauna now!

ADA: So, how is the discussion?

JOHANNA: We have six minutes left.

ADA: Six minutes? Only six minutes?

JOHANNA: Joking.

LIINA: Shut it down, will you? Because after half an hour we are going to tell the truth!

ELINA: Shut it, shut it now!

JOHANNA: But hey ladies – it is not recording anything. You see, I was the one who put it all together, and you can all see how good I am with the technical equipment!

LIINA: Would you need a man to help you?

JOHANNA: I’ve been thinking about that quietly in my mind for a loooong time now.

ADA: We should make this collaboration of women that travel around Finland, Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania and keep on having these conversations and finally we will find out the truth!

ELINA: I think so, too.

LIINA: Depends on what kind of truth you want.

ELINA: I would like to go back to the thing I was talking about – in a little provocative way - that me and Anna felt that we were treated really badly in the Baltic countries by some men-

JOHANNA: It also is the kind of cliché thinking that here we have... that the Baltic cultures or the Russian culture is seen as a huge patriarch and women are nothing there. Whereas we can be ugly and fat and use terrible language because we are free.

ELINA: There is this famous Estonian jet set woman who is married to a Finnish millionaire. She said recently in the press that the Finnish women are disgusting and look like hell. She had said: “why don’t the Finnish women let themselves feel like women? Why do they want to decide everything, be bosses in all places?”

JOHANNA: Did she say that?

ELINA: Yes. And maybe somehow it is true.

JOHANNA: But the interesting part was that her comment was published here in
our yellow papers and the public reaction was very strong. It was everywhere.

ELINA: All the Finnish women went: We are not looking ugly! I am not ugly! I can point out so many Finnish women that look good! And in the end, it is all about high heels. We don’t wear high heels. Oh well, tonight I’m wearing high heels but it is only because of this conversation... the high heels are actually the reason why I want to travel. I love Vilnius because there are so many good shoe shops. One of my favourite cities! But seriously, the fact is that the Estonian jet set woman was not completely wrong. We are a bit like she said. We don’t have in our shops as many high heels as there are in Vilnius because nobody buys them.

ADA: I think this must be a myth.

JOHANNA: Nobody buys them because it is not accepted to look like a woman in this culture. So, wearing high heels is a bit of a sexual revolution here.

ELINA: It’s a fact. Here. If I dressed up like a woman and put on some make up and went to a rehearsal like that, people would not take me seriously.

ADA: But you don’t need to do that. What for? Do that when you go to the party in the evening!

GIEDRE: but people have been wondering why the ordinary girls in Lithuania want to look pretty all the time, in every day life. Not only to wear miniskirts to the parties but every day.

ADA: It totally depends on the person!

JOHANNA: Yeah but if you look at the women here on the street and in Vilnius....

GIEDRE: You can really see it when the men from here come to us, they go like Ooh!

ADA: There are lot of women in Lithuania who want to look good and it is not bad. Or good. It is just normal.

JOHANNA: We are not talking about good or bad.

ADA: I think there are a lot of beautiful women in Vilnius, but it’s not a question of high heels. They are just natural beauties.

ELINA: But you also do dress up there.

ADA: I read an article about a film director, who is a woman by the way. She is working on a film that tells about the sexuality in the province. She says that it is the villages where the ladies want to look the best.

ELINA: A-ha.

ADA: They’ve got too much make up on, they dress as if they were going to a party all the time. And they start their sex lives too early.

ELINA: So they are very young, teenagers?

ADA: Teenagers. This is their way of understanding the female question: they must be beautiful, and they must fight for the men. But what for - they do not know. And that is their problem. They do not know themselves. The other problem with this is the men. A man can go to any disco in Vilnius with no problem. But if he goes to a disco in a provincial town and looks at the wrong girls, he will be beaten up. He will be dead. So, the countryside has totally different rules in Lithuania.

Liina comes back from sauna and on the way she drops something down from the table.

ELINA: Johanna, put the recording on, finally! Liina is about to tell the truth!

JOHANNA: I think I have just broken the camera of Q Theatre. For some reason it keeps on ejecting the tape...

KIRSI: It did not like the idea of the discussion.

JOHANNA: No. But this happens to me all the time.

ELINA: So, we have all these technical problems because there are no men.

JOHANNA: Exactly. I will never be a real video artist.

ELINA: So, was the toilet somewhere here?

JOHANNA: Yeah, but it is pretty terrible.

ELINA: Yeah?

LIINA: I’ve lived the Soviet period, you know. Nothing will shock me.

JOHANNA: But it’ll feel cosy then! 

Kirsi takes the camera and starts to fix it.

JOHANNA: See that one there and like this but it doesn’t work. The thing is that I really don’t have a clue about these equipment. I just had the video installation exhibition, too but I would’ve never managed to set it up if the gentlemen hadn’t been there helping me out.

Kirsi hands the camera back to Johanna. It works again.

JOHANNA: Wow! How did you do that!

KIRSI: I put the tape into the tape holder and then I closed it.

ELINA: How is it with the university students in your country? Are there more female students than male?

GIEDRE: I think so.

JOHANNA: Are there more female students in the field of art?

GIEDRE: Yes.

JOHANNA: It’s the same thing here. There are many strong female students in the art schools but later a lot of them disappear.

ADA: Gierdre? Champagne?

GIEDRE: Yes, please. So, for instance Ada and me studied art management in the Culture  Academy. In our course two out of twenty students were men.

JOHANNA: But don’t you think that cultural management is traditionally a female profession? The girls work at the office.

GIEDRE: Yes. But the situation is similar to the one in other studies, too. There are more women.

ANNA: There might be some men running to the toilet in the corridor, speaking in Estonian. But they are just neighbours. And very nice.

JOHANNA: So is this the reason why you are running around naked?

LIINA: During the Soviet period there was this slogan that the men and women are equal. We had that slogan for almost a hundred years. And what did it do!

JOHANNA: What did it do?

LIINA: -

ADA: I found the two guys in the corridor!

LIINA: Oh, they are the nice Estonian guys!

ELINA: Say hello!

KIRSI: So, what happened when the women and men were equal?

LIINA: In my opinion women took it like that that they have to be like the men.

GIEDRE: I also think that during the Soviet period the requirements were the same for both women and men.

LIINA: But at home everything stayed the same. So it was only more requirements to the women.

ANNA: How’s our sparkling wine doing?

JOHANNA: One left.

ANNA: Shall I open it?

JOHANNA: Yeah.

ANNA: I had one really nice sauna evening here some time ago. My friends Marius and Darius from Lithuania came to have a sauna here. I was directing Marius’ play The Neighbor and the premiere was just a few days ahead, so I was really stressed. Instead of going to sauna, I stayed here in the dressing room and wrote down things I wanted to do the next day. Marius and
Darius went to sauna but did not dare to come out, so that they would not disturb me. They sat in the hot steam room and started to get louder: “Anna, can we come out now?” And I went like: “No, I’m not finished yet!” And they went, louder again, like: “Anna, we would really like to come out now, we can’t take this anymore!”

JOHANNA: So why didn’t you let them come out?

ANNA: I needed some privacy to finish my work. So they had to have sauna again and again!

JOHANNA: They had to stay in 140°C!

ANNA: By the way, did you notice all those creams on the table? They are for feet and face and body and so on. Help yourselves, please.

JOHANNA: This women’s corner is a parody of course.

ELINA: Parody? This is the truth. I wish all the discussions were like this, not like around some stupid round table.

JOHANNA: That’s my plan for the future.

ANNA: And then there are different sets for manicure there, so you can do it if you want to. Actually, the last time I had manicure it was during the trip to Tallinn when I came to see the latest VKT performance. It is amazing, how expensive all those things are here in Finland... If you have a person that would do something for you, like manicure or massage... it is always so
expensive here.

LIINA: in Finnish I have this old friend in Tallinn who is a hairdresser...

GIEDRE: Do you speak Finnish?

JOHANNA, ELINA: She speaks beautiful Finnish.

LIINA: It’s because of the Finnish television. During the Soviet period in the Northern part of Estonia you could see the Finnish TV if you had a certain secret equipment. It was like a window to the Europe and everybody watched it. But nowadays of course there is no need so nobody  watches it and young people don’t learn the language anymore. It’s a pity.

ELINA: A lot of tourists are traveling from Finland to Tallinn and they speak only Finnish there, because they think every Estonian knows Finnish.

LIINA: Then I start to speak English.

ANNA That’s right!

JOHANNA: When I have been to Estonia I have had this problem that I do not know which language would be the politically correct to use. Because, you know, Estonia is the only country in the world where a Finn can feel like a fucking God-

ELINA: King!

ADA: Fucking God!?

LIINA: It’s true!

JOHANNA: So, it has been really difficult to choose the language, because you anyway felt like a bad British colonialist suppresser being a Finn in Estonia. So, if you speak Finnish, you are like –

ELINA: A reindeer!

JOHANNA: Yeah like rude and like someone who assumes that the Finnish culture is above the Estonian culture. If you speak English.... it’s kinda like the same... and on the other hand, we are like brothers and our languages are similar, so why choose English? And Russian then of course,
it is always difficult to speak Russian in countries that have a history like Estonia. So, whenever I go to kiosk or something in Estonia, I keep on thinking which language to choose.

ELINA: Yeah me too.

LIINA: English.

JOHANNA: Tell us about the situation in Russia by the way. You know, we were very lucky because we did not sort of lose the war even though we did. The Finns were not sent to Siberia in masses and they remained free. And you know, we do not have the problem with a huge Russian minority. ... which on the other hand might be good to have, theatre wise at least...

ELINA: Now we do have a Russian minority.

JOHANNA: Yes but it is completely different from the Baltic countries which have their huge minorities that arrived during the Soviet suppression. When I studied in Russia I had this class mate that was a Russian girl from Tallinn. Her opinion about this problem was that the Estonians don’t give any chance to the Russians who live in the country.

LIINA: How old was she?

JOHANNA: Sixteen or seventeen. She said, that there are no other opportunities for them than being a criminal.

LIINA: Maybe she was trying to be politically correct. But she is right in that .... that here in Finland you are very lucky, because you have a two-language nation and you have all the street names in both languages for instance. If the street names were in two languages in Estonia, there would be a civil war by now. The occupation is too near. There is some kind of strong emotional anger. But I am a little bit surprised that a sixteen year old would say that, because in Tallinn the situation is not that bad. Whereas in the eastern part of Estonia, where most of the Russians live, it is a total hell. Because the industry is gone, everybody is unemployed. There are only drug addicts there. It is terrifying. But in Tallinn the young people who don’t remember the Soviet period…

JOHANNA: But their parents have their memories and that’s where the kids get there bitterness, too. To hate the Russians is installed in every Finn. And our last battle was as long as 60 years ago!  

ANNA: That one is for your feet...

LIINA: Have you been to BaltoScandal in Rakvere?

ANNA: That is actually for your face... and that is my most favourite hand cream.

LIINA: Last time there was some Finnish man who got very drunk and started shouting at the Estonians – who share the common hate towards the Russians, “The fucking Russians!”, it was well amusing. But. This nationalism is not a problem of our generation in Estonia. Or at least not to people who bother with some rational thinking. I, for instance, have a lot of Russian friends. 

JOHANNA: But. That’s the way she (the Russian class mate from Tallinn) felt.

LIINA: That’s the way she felt.

ELINA: We are talking about the hostility to Russians.

LIINA: Like in Estonia, the way the Russians feel about it. And the Estonians. And how it is different in different areas.

ELINA: What is it like in Lithuania?

ADA: I am not a specialist in this case, but I think we do have some hostility to the Russians. But it was felt very deeply then, fifteen years ago, and now it is different. And maybe they do feel a bit abandoned.

LIINA: Exactly. We don't feel anymore, but they feel still.

ADA: Maybe we do not hate them but we just forget them. Ten years ago it was the main topic, Russians in Lithuania, but these days it is not that interesting. A good example is also that only ten percent of the youth now speak Russian.

ELINA: Can you choose Russian language to study at school?

ADA: Yes.

JOHANNA: Does anyone choose it?

ADA: No.

LIINA: It’s because of their parents, who were forced to study it.

ADA: It’s normal, because the most popular language now is English.

ELINA: I think we had the same situation with the languages after the war. And now we have a problem with nobody speaking Russian.

JOHANNA: For the past 60 years, people have really NOT wanted to study Russian here.

LIINA: But why should they?

ADA: I think that the people in the cultural field must learn Russian.

LIINA: Yeah, I suppose I made a nationalistic comment here...

ELINA: Emotional nationalism: WHY should anyone have to learn Russian! But in my school you could not even choose the Russian language.

Someone knocks on the front door. Pause.

LIINA: What was that?

ELINA: Those are the Estonians!

JOHANNA: Your guards are coming!

ANNA: I will go and check out what is happening there.

Anna opens the door.

EVERYBODY: AAA! It was Giedre!

ELINA: We waited for some men to come!

GIEDRE: Sorry to disappoint...

Johanna drops the camera again.

JOHANNA: Q Theater's camera...

ANNA: Let’s break it!

ADA: Let’s destroy this room!

ELINA: No! Hey I want to go back to this that it is a funny situation that in school you can learn French or Italian, but no Russian!

ADA: No no, you can choose it just like any other language, but nobody wants to.

KOTORZYNA: I think it is an image question. English, French, Italian, German, they are all European languages. And Europe is the centre now. And our parents are trying to forget that time -

LIINA: Yeah, it’s like normal. It’s like development. Russian language is too near now. But after some time it will come back.

ADA: There was this one man in Lithuania that collected all the statues from the Soviet period. A few years ago he wanted to establish a museum for these monuments. And oh my God! There was so much discussion about whether we needed that kind of museum or not.

LIINA: Nobody could understand that it is history. We’ve had that too. It is too emotional.

ELINA: It is funny that a few years ago in Germany they created this term Ostalgia. Nostalgia for the Eastern Germany. And for Finns the Lenin statues are still a very popular souvenir to bring home from Estonia for instance. Because for us those things do not mean that much.

ADA: You know what are the most popular letters in T-shirts among the youth?
CCCP.

LIINA: In Estonian it’s Che Guevara.

JOHANNA: I was just like: I’m not gonna say it – but you did it for me, Liina.

LIINA: I’ll have a look at the sauna now.

JOHANNA: You mentioned Germany. It is like the model country for dealing with the painful national issues. Like they are already now dealing with the problematic situation of the past ten years that has been caused by the union of the Eastern and Western parts. In Russia they don’t deal with anything. They still think that they liberated the eastern Europe from the nazis. Including Finland. And the fact is that zero per cent of the Finns think that the Russians liberated us. This has something to do with the Russian attitude towards the world.

ELINA: It sounds a bit like the American attitude towards the rest of the world.

JOHANNA: It’s the imperialistic attitude.

ELINA: We love you and we are going to set you free. We give you freedom.

JOHANNA: So I think that the Russians do not understand the fact that the Baltic countries ”left” them at all. And the only way they deal with the issue is to defend the rights of the Russians in the Baltic States. So, when a big Russian politician like Putin defend the rights of the Russians in Latvia for instance, he neglects the history completely. As if there had not been any suppression of the Latvians during the Soviet era. As if the masses of people had not been sent to Siberia!

KOTORZYNA: The Germans say that ok, our grandparents made a mistake and now we are paying for it. I am not against the Jews, but the German society is a little bit too dramatic now. Because if, for instance, there is a Jewish family in the middle of Germany that does something wrong, they can’t say anything to them because it would be a political thing.

ELINA: Yeah, but....

JOHANNA: Germany is one of the few countries in the whole human history that has dealt with the dark moments in it’s own past. Ok, they were forced to it, because they lost the war, but anyway - they did it. And that must be psychologically extremely hard. Maybe sometimes they go a bit over the top... Like for instance, if a black emigrant made a play, everybody would love
it dead because it is a black emigrant’s play, not because it is theatre. But I think that is better than not dealing with anything at all.

ELINA: Mmmm.

ADA: Everybody is talking different languages.

LIINA: Hey, there is the manicure set! Nail bar!

ELINA: They are so cheap in Estonia...

LIINA: I wonder why it is that we are not taken seriously?

JOHANNA: I mentioned that this women’s corner is all parody...

LIINA: Yeee!...

ANNA: If you want to like some hardener, you put this...

GIEDRE: It’s a pity that in Lithuania we don’t have a sauna in every house.


The discussion lasted until 6am.